Wikipedia has a nice article on the history of the Romani people, sometimes called the Gypsies (a name based on an incorrect belief that they were a people who came to Europe from Egypt) or Roma (some use the term "Roma" to refer only to one group within the Romani people, I use it, perhaps incorrectly, but in line with some mass media conventions on the subject, to refer to all Romani people in this post). It marshals linguistic, genetic and historical sources documenting the argument, just on the cusp of the line between history and pre-history, that this ethnic group migrated from India to what is now Turkey (Anatolia), stayed there for a prolonged period of perhaps hundreds of years, and then migrated to Southeastern Europe.
A group of people known as the Dom, now numbering about 2.2 million in Iran, migrated from South Asia in the 500s, and may represent an earlier wave of migrants than the Roma. Isolated visits in the Byzantine empire by the "Atsingani", (a name sometimes attached to the Roma in the 1300s) are found from the 800s and before, but it isn't clear if they are the same group of people or not (it may have been a separate Manichean religious sect from Persia, i.e. Iran, or the Dom people).
The primary departure from India to the Byzantine Empire may have been a movement by defeated Northern Indian soldiers with their families in the wake of their defeat in raids by the Persian Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni into India around 1000 A.D. Mahmud's empire was an Islamic empire followed by the empire of the Seljuk Turks which gradually expanded West into Orthodox Christian Byzantine territory. Historical documents place the arrival of the Roma in Greece and Southeastern Europe in the 1300s, around the time that the Byzantine empire collapsed and was conquered by the Islamic Ottoman Empire (a successor to the empire of Mahmud of Ghazni and of the Seljuk Turks that preceded it).
Linguistic evidence suggests that the Romani language is most closely related to a branch of Hindustani languages that did not arise until about 1000 A.D. Their language is a descendant of Sanskrit rather than Latin. Roma cultural practices and beliefs also suggest the South Asian roots that they themselves claim.
Genetic evidence also shows strong evidence of a link to South Asia. At least 47% of Roma men and about 30% of Roma women have genetic markers otherwise found only in India. There is also genetic evidence of "founder's effects" associated with a small population bottleneck between the current population and source population that is consistent with the overall historical picture. There is also many genetic subgroups within Roma populations in Europe, due either to "(i) a genetically substructured ancestral population, where the old social traditions of strict endogamy have been retained and subsequent splits of the comprising groups have enhanced the original genetic differences; (ii) a small homogeneous ancestral population spawning numerous subgroups where strong drift effects have resulted in substantial genetic divergence."
The precise origins of the Roma within India are unclear. The general language family into which the Romani language fits is found in Northern and Central India. The cluster of genetic markers that is most common among the "Romanis is more prevalent in central India than it is in northern India." At least one genetic disease which is unusually common among the Romani, however, suggests a genetic link to the Jat people near Punjab, in Northwestern South Asia. The historical hypothesis that Sultan Mahmud's invasions led to the Roma migration would also point to a Northern India origin. One effort to synthesize the linguistic information suggests that the Roma's Indian ancestors may "have lived in the central Indian area, from where they emigrated to the north-west of India (about 250 BC) to reside there for a longer period of time. Experts still disagree on the point of time of the "gypsies‘" emigration from the northwest of India."
The founding population of Roma in Europe was small. According to one of the scientific journal articles cited by Wikipedia, the overall number of Roma in its Balkan provinces in the 15th century was estimated at only 17,000. There are now millions of Roma in Europe, where they are one of the continent's most ill treated minority populations.
In the case of the Roma, this represents a full circle migration. Linguistic evidence puts the origins of the Indo-European languages in Anatolia (present day Turkey) among some of the earliest farmers in human history around 8,000-9,500 years ago, not long after the neolithic revolution. One branch of the language family produced the Indo-European languages of India (e.g. Sanskrit and its descendants), another produced the Indo-European languages of Europe (e.g. Latin and its descendants). The Roma represent a group from the Eastern most wing of that language family (India) that migrated back into area where the Western wing of that language family took hold (Europe) through the area where the Indo-European languages probably originated (Turkey).
UPDATE July 1, 2024: The language in strikeout has since been pretty definitively proven to be inaccurate. The Indo-European languages originated in the Pontic Caspian Steppe, not in Anatolia, and not in the early Neolithic with the first farmers.
Some Ancient Jewish and Proto-Jewish History
In the case of the Jewish people, their historic language, Hebrew (which was brought back from the status of a "dead language" used only by scholars and for religious purposes into the living language of Israel), is a Semitic language rather than an Indo-European one.
The Semitic languages have their roots in the Middle East, North Africa and the Horn of Africa. The most widely spoken languages in that family today are "Arabic (322 million native speakers, approx 422 million total speakers). . . followed by Amharic (27 million) [in North Central Ethiopia], Tigrinya (about 6.7 million) [mostly in Eritrea], and Hebrew (about 5 million)." The Maltese language spoken in Malta, off the coast of Italy, is also Semetic and is the only Semetic language that is written in the Western alphabet.
The ancestors of Proto-Semitic speakers are now widely believed to have first arrived in the Middle East from Africa around the late Neolithic," although an alternative theory puts the source of Proto-Semitic in the Middle East itself, largely because some Semitic languages in Africa have Sumerian loan words (and Sumerian clearly did originate in the Middle East). Semitic languages spread out from "the Arabian Peninsula by approximately the 4th millennium BC."
A (now dead) Semitic language adopted the cuneiform script of Sumerian (the first known written language of humanity used in Southern Iraq and spoke from at least the 4th millennium BCE) and replaced Sumerian "as a spoken language somewhere around the turn of the 3rd and the 2nd millennium BCE (the exact dating being a matter of debate), but continued to be used as a sacred, ceremonial, literary and scientific language in Mesopotamia until the first century CE (AD)." Semitic Cuneiform was later abandoned in favor of the Aramaic script. The Sumerian language is now dead and is not related to any other known language (i.e. it is a language isolate), except through some loan words in some Semitic languages. (Today, there are only six language isolates on the Eurasian continent, the best known being Basque and Korean).
Other notable members of this language family are the (now dead) Phoenician (once spoken in the Eastern Mediterranean) and its successor Aramaic whose script was adapted by Hebrew, Arabic and other other Middle Eastern languages including non-Semitic ones. "It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BCE – 70 CE), the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, likely to have been the mother tongue of Jesus of Nazareth and is the main language of the Talmud." "Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by many scattered, predominantly small, and largely isolated communities of differing Christian, Jewish and Muslim groups of the Middle East —most numerously by the Assyrians in the form of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic," numbering in all about 2.2 million people and is considered an "endangered language." Aramaic is the closest living language relative of Hebrew. The languages have a common origin.
The Roma and the Jews
The Roma and the Jews are among the only examples of mass migration of non-Roman ethnic groups into Europe from the East until a mostly post-colonial wave of immigration in to Europe in the last few decades (the Jewish diaspora began about 1900-2000 years ago). One reason that their histories are notable is because they provide a concrete interface between the modern world and the part of ancient history that pre-dates what many college students are taught in Western Civilization.
History from late Greek civilization and the Roman Empire onward is quite well documented and widely known. The roughly 3,500 years before that era starts to get fuzzy, and I certainly don't know it that well. Like most people educated when I was, I also don't know much about the pre-Colonial eras for much of the rest of the world. One of my long term interests these days is to get a sense of this era, and to better pin down what we know about our ancient history, from the pre-Greco-Roman era back to the Neolithic revolution and pre-Neolithic migrations of the human race.
Our lack of knowledge isn't entirely an accident. Before the Sumarian, nothing was written down. Many of the modern world's other links to pre-Western, pre-Arabic Civilization were deliberately wiped out in the late Roman Empire and the early Islamic empire. Also, it is surely no accident that the age of the world as measured by young Earth creationists closely coincides with the age of the world's written history.
Both the Roma and Jews were subject to persecution on and off for most of their time in Europe, culminating in the genocide of the Holocaust for each group. Their experience in the last two thousand years can also help us trace questions about ancient history by providing empirical examples of answer to key questions faced by those trying to piece together the ancient past.
How much of a cultural and genetic impact can a small group of people that migrates into a larger established culture have on the larger culture? How isolated can a population of people remain while co-existing with a larger population?
In the case of the Roma, one can observe this quite directly. In the case of the Jewish people, the influences through the common origins of Christianity and rabbinic Judaism have to be parsed from the subsequent impacts on European culture.
77 comments:
To be accurate not all Gypsies (Romanies) are Roma. Gitanos, Romanichals, and Sinti are not considered to be Roma, but are Romanies and speak variations of Romany. Roma are Romanies that are specifically from Eastern Europe but the Sinti made it to Germany centuries before the Roma did. In fact, in Germany they usually make it a point to use the phrase "Sinti and Roma" to include both groups.
I am making a very simple presentation to a general audience. I use Gypsy and Roma as equivalent terms referring to all Romanies, using Gypsy initially and in the headline at all because it is more widely understood in the U.S., and using Roma because it is more respectiful and in common media useage.
I don't disagree with your clarification, and completely agree that there are distinct groups of Romanies (to follow your useage). But, I oversimplified and used better understood terms to get accross the basic idea. The post is too basic to address a taxonomy of Romanies. I would also note that useage of terms varies quite a bit from source to source.
I ran across the most awful site this week it was obvious it was posted by white supremacist but it was trying to stir up Romany people. They pretende to be Gypsy but I know it was a lie They went on and on about how Jews hate Roma its a lie
white supremasist hate roma and start trouble to repete the history of the naziz I grew up watching my Father make music with Jewish people
they were great friends I dont think anyon can say for sure who is what and if lines were ever crossed in eastern europe who is mix with who
In my large family there has been gypsy folk who married do know that have jewish in their blood
The site got me so mad I wanted to email them and tell them lies and filth but they had no way to caontact them
rosie
"The Sumerian language is now dead and is not related to any other known language ".
As I know, this statement is might be wrong. There are growing number of study and evidence pointing toward to Hungarian language, which has Sumerian roots, and it`s not because of loan words. Hungarian language seems to preserve (till today) a lot of Sumerian.
@4/30
I'd welcome a citiation. I haven't seen the claim made credibly. Hungarian is part of the Uralic languages (which also includes, e.g., Finnish) which appears to have its origins in the languages of the circumpolar hunters and gatherers in Northern Eurasia and perhaps even North America. There is no good reason to see a connection from cultural affinities.
Hi. Im 50% Pure Bohemian whos fathers family came to America to avade Hitler. Im am of the first generation of broken blood. My mother is Appalachian American Mutt. I too had a very hard time learning of my bohemian heritage from my family as they converted to Catholism after their migration to America. Only holding on to certain objects of their families heritage before, like recipes for Duck and Jewish Rye bread. However their family crest was the eagle. Our name literally translates to "smoky skinned" all of which are more Sumerian in idealolgy. With the exception of our finely hand crafted decorative embroidaried clothing and food which are more Jewish with the exception that we consume large amounts of pork. My point I am making is that it is obvious to me that my fathers family has both Romani and Jewish characteristics and more then likely submerged together around 200-300 yrs ago. I also think that it is possible that Jewish culture itself is a product of of ancianct persian cultures and are closely comprible to the Zorastrian religion that was created in Persia.
Roma Gypsies are descendants of Rechabites midianite tribe of Israel descendats of midianite priest Jethro. Midian was brother of Ishvak or Ishbak . Ishvaku is ancestor of Brahmin race. Ishvaku was son of Brahma and Gayarati (Abraham and Keturah). So Midianites spoken similar language which was Akkadian or prakrit or Sanskrit. Keturah was daughter of akkadian king Sargon I .So Midianites spoken similar language like Brahmin in Indiavand also they got similar dna. Rechabites were descendants of Jethro children and Aronite children they are Levite in fact.
Thanks for the post. John at RechaSmiths.
Scottish tinker gypsies who spoke gaelic and are not 'Romany' with unusual legends about being condemned to wander after making crucifixion cross nails and references to 'black jews' in the Hebridean Islands ? whats that all about? Oh and apparently the Scots also refused to rear pigs on farms and wouldn't eat pork. "When Christ was being taken to the tree of crucifixion, in the hurry the
black Jews forgot to provide themselves with nails. They went to the
blacksmith and asked him to make nails to nail the hands and the feet
of the Saviour to the cross. But the blacksmith refused to make nails for
such a purpose. The Jews went to the whitesmith (tinsmith, tinker) and
asked him to make nails to nail the hands and the feet of the Saviour to
the cross. The whitesmith did the work as the Jews asked of him, and the
hands and the feet of Christ the blessed Saviour were nailed to the tree of
crucifixion. This is why the blacksmith is esteemed and honoured among
men, while the whitesmith is contemned and despised, and this is why the
race of the whitesmith is spread and scattered here and there throughout
the great world."
http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/pageturner.cfm?id=78430212&mode=transcription https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOgXweTkHc
So weird...
http://conspiro.net/
The rumor that I was told is that they were from India,and were carrying the mark of Cain,going there after the problems of the language confusion at the tower of Babel,where before everyone spoke Tamil.
Among them were the tribe of Tubal Cain..
Let's think about Cain. According to the Bible, he was kicked out of Eden for having killed his brother.
Let's think about Eden, allegedly located in Mesopotamia in present-day Iraq. But the birthplace of human civilisation was actually the Indus Valley in present-day Pakistan, and that loction also corresponds with the geography of Eden described in the Bible.
Who else got kicked out of the Indus Valley? The people of Sind or the Dravidians - they got kicked out by Aryan tribes invading from the Ukraine during the period between 2150 and 1250 BC, from whom most of the present-day inhabitants of India and indeed most Europeans are descended. Some of the people of Sind went to Southern India, where they still live and speak Dravidian, but most began a journey that took them to every corner of Europe and the world. Some of them have never stopped travelling - either literally or metaphorically, because they are always far from the home they were evicted from more than 3,000 years ago - and they are the Sinti or Roma.
Let's think about the Old Testament. Who wrote it? People who wanted to rewrite history, a patriarchal priesthood. Who else wanted to rewrite history? The Aryans, who wanted to whitewash over the history and religion of the people who were there before them. The expulsion from Paradise, first of Adam and then of Cain, was a mythological metaphor to demonise the earlier culture. And so it has been ever since - that is the history of the world.
So, yes - in a very profound and well-hidden sense, the Roma are the descendants of Cain: Cain and indeed "sin" itself are mythological figures representing the ancient pre-Aryan culture from which civilisation, religion and the Roma sprang.
Of course, the Aryans wanted to claim civilisation and God for themselves, and it was they who instituted patriarchal culture in the Near East, from where it would eventually pursue the Roma all over the world. They also demonised Adam's first wife Lilith, who unlike Eve wasn't taken from Adam's side, not to mention the female consort of God himself, Asherah.
The nails though, that has got to be a straightforward case of projection, because iron smithing was the reason for the Aryan conquest - iron weapons were just superior.
This demonisation of Sind was a prototype for the "history" of the world as we have been successfully persuaded of it ... and the Aryan supremacists have never stopped persecuting those groups who stand as a living testimony to their foundation legends, their version of historical and religious truth.
But among them were the builders,the blacksmiths and the witches,that eventually traveled with them to every land that they traveled too.
I believe.Cain descendants, we don't murder, cursed is the ground from us, vagabonds and thieves we are, scattered like or more then the Jews over the entire globe, prosecuted like Jews hated, holocaust up to a mil and a half dead there, we have similar traditions, a lot of coincidents
Too much to ignore, I wish someone could say for sure, plus we don't have our own country, we recently got a flag, approximately 25 yes ago
Roma Gypsies descent of Nazarates from Samaria and Persian ELAMITES! Nazaretes came from many Israelite tribes, but mostly from levites!They mixed with ELAMITES, which from them came Roma /Gypsies! Rechabites also belong to Nazarine sect from Samaria! Roma Gypsies have Aronite (Cohamin) DNA + haploglroup H , which is similar to Hindu people like Yadava or Dravid from India (this people emigrated from ancient Elam to India in 1500BC). Elamite Persians we're brought to north Israel (Samaria) in 724 Bc,by Assyrians they spoken Persian Sanskrit, which Roma Gypsies spoken now!
So wrong LOL surely you made this up.
In accordance with irrefutable historical evidence is clear that the Roma are the Jews of Samaria and the people of northern kingdom of Israel. Their capital was Samaria in northern Israel to the years 737 to 720 (BC), when the state of Israel gradually disintegrated as a result of the war with Assyria. By the year 722 (BC) Roma were deported from the territory of ancient Israel on the territory of Nineveh, which was located in the Kingdom HANIGALBAT-Mitanni in Mesopotamia. Nineveh was part of the kingdom of Assyria in the 7-6 centuries until then, until their nepodmanila Medes Empire, which stretched from India to Antholis. King Sargon of Assyria (II.Sarrukin) Median most cities have joined together, Medes deported to the territory of Assyria and Samaria of Jews, Gypsies in the Medes Empire. Roma were 150 years vassals Assyrian Empire. After the fall of Assyria rule Babylonians deported and their brothers from the south. Those in exile ustrážili have their own identity, social structure and their priestess tribe and after the 70's they went back to the territory of Canaan, where they continue to be recognized as Jews. In a relatively short time they managed to get back less of their northern brethren, Roma, but most of them still had to live in exile. / History of Ancient Mesopotamia and the territory of Israel /
Roma came into India only in the year 128 (BC), and by the white Huns who were Hepthaliti, and subsequently lived in Uttar Pradesh. In particular, this region of Roma took over a lot of foreign words from India that are used today.
In accordance with irrefutable historical evidence is clear that the Roma are the Jews of Samaria and the people of northern kingdom of Israel. Their capital was Samaria in northern Israel to the years 737 to 720 (BC), when the state of Israel gradually disintegrated as a result of the war with Assyria. By the year 722 (BC) Roma were deported from the territory of ancient Israel on the territory of Nineveh, which was located in the Kingdom HANIGALBAT-Mitanni in Mesopotamia. Nineveh was part of the kingdom of Assyria in the 7-6 centuries until then, until their nepodmanila Medes Empire, which stretched from India to Antholis. King Sargon of Assyria (II.Sarrukin) Median most cities have joined together, Medes deported to the territory of Assyria and Samaria of Jews, Gypsies in the Medes Empire. Roma were 150 years vassals Assyrian Empire. After the fall of Assyria rule Babylonians deported and their brothers from the south. Those in exile ustrážili have their own identity, social structure and their priestess tribe and after the 70's they went back to the territory of Canaan, where they continue to be recognized as Jews. In a relatively short time they managed to get back less of their northern brethren, Roma, but most of them still had to live in exile. / History of Ancient Mesopotamia and the territory of Israel /
Roma came into India only in the year 128 (BC), and by the white Huns who were Hepthaliti, and subsequently lived in Uttar Pradesh. In particular, this region of Roma took over a lot of foreign words from India that are used today.
Some historians and anthropologists are so isolated from the Roma community that can not be sufficiently aware of their culture. Therefore, not many know about Hebrew elements of Roma culture, they are not taken as the original. This is evidenced by their statements which refer to fake the results of linguistic and ethnographic explorations of researchers who were able to write anything in this regard to the acceptance of their claims.
It is serious, the fact that some historians do not respect their twenties kings, who democratically elected the 10 tribes of Roma unjust behavior King Solomon, who neglected the northern part of Israel, and almost all of the funds devoted to Jerusalem. They respect neither the historical truth that the ancestors of the Roma were Akkad and strains derived therefrom were again common ancestor of the Jews. Indeed, some historians argue that no one knows the true origins of the Roma. It is a deliberate disinformation, which is regrettable. They argue that although the original version of the Jewish Encyclopedia states that the Roma should be regarded as Jews. There also another Geer worg with which Roma have been in Byzantium: "Athinganoi" Conserting the Athinganoi, the Jewish Encyklopedia says " the may be regarded as Jews. I would like to propose to all defendants the right to study the history of Roma origin of the ancient territory of Israel and then interpret the historical truth as honestly and objectively. Addition to the rights of Roma origin is misinformation!
EU, which has already lost the original identity of Europe could not care less about the true identity of the Roma.
Those anthropologists who had never been research activity of Roma identity and Indian nomads and abroad directly in their respective communities and who have just acquired the counterfeit theory of Indian origin of Roma simply can not have objective knowledge about the true origin of the Roma. In my opinion, they have no moral right to defend the theory unrealistic because it would offend the entire history of the ancient territory of Israel.
We, Israel advocates of the theory of the origin of the Roma we say that the theory of Indo-European origins of the Roma is fake. This theory lacks real truth about the true origin of the Roma.
First World Congress of Delegates from fourteen countries, who founded the World Roma Union in 1971 probably did not know the history of the Roma and did not even have slightest knowledge of the history of the territory of ancient Israel. That they decided to use the Roma flag, which contains in addition to two lanes, lower and upper green blue, and red wheel with spokes that symbolizes India. But the Gypsies do not come from India but from the Holy Land of Israel! Roma, who know their Jewish ancestry often ask me if the roma flag isnt the flag of Indian nomads. According to the number of Roma in the Roma flag missing
characters of Israel, the caracters of the former home of Israel of all Roma. Whit that my argument in any case I do not intend to offend the current Roma flag.
i beleve that roma gypsies are the lost tribes of isreal thay are a people lost in ther idenaty but unknowingly thay carry with them customs of moses thay are scatterd true the world thay dont no what thay are or were thay come from thay dont fit in with outher people even if thay wanted to. ther outcast amoung the nations. thay never new how to read or wright in the past, but thay new god. allways carried that one beleve. never going into outher ways to beleve in god. its funny ther all over the world and thay dont pick up diffrent ways of beleve in god. look at the the curses in dudaronamy in the bible. thay follow this exsample ther marages are based on bible marage thay dont no what tora is but thay follow some things in it. ther a lost people. thay are just a people with out a contrey a nation a idenaty a name i hope thay come to relize to follow tora and come back to the father son and holy sprit and repent deeply to god stop following fauls teaching stop doing what the gentiles do.....
its not right the way churches are teaching the people it says in the bible a famen of gods word the truth wont be found. stop all thes marages all this filth and dirt in ther life. we cant here the word of god and go out and live like the devil would people want a wife steller a husband steller a thef in ther house.you have standers so what makes people think god would exsept people like that in his house , you have standerds in your house so is it right that god has the same .we want to be saved. thank god he found a way to help us. he wants us to repent of this thing and not conduct are selfs in this manner. and true him we can be with him a unrightes life styal isent permited to enter his kingdom treat outhers like you want to be treated we all have filling even the gypsies. some not all. but if your not able to lift some one out of a finacel hole then dont redacure them for trying to survive . ther is a god. and people need to take ther spirit life more seroius. i sined in my life im not perfect but i dident no the torha bible i was thought by the church about jesus.. we cant live a clean life and we can still go to heven true jesus.i found out we will go to hell with that teaching. i sure hope all the people that past on with that teaching god will help them .thay dident lose ther salvation with that teaching i can under stand better now the bible . and do all things god say to do not what the church says maybe thay need thought.
i found out the gentiles clame to be cristlike still have pagan ways ther is no restrain on them ther a free sprit anny thing gos sleep around ok shack up ok no respect for ther body what thay see .thay like thay want what ever who ever. ok. get me right some has a good hart but some are greedy some trow good food away befor thay give it to some one to eat. because thay dident ern it. some are so proud. think ther better .tofaces it act good to your face and stab you in the back. you can be best frends with them and thay turn on you for no reson. cant be trusted im not judging i love all people.i like real people down to earth not sestamadic and keeping up a imige i dont like fonnies. we need good bondries. to be kind .from the hart we need to be god like people i no its hard to trust people right off the bat . but if were real we wont be a backstabber ,lets not fall in to gentile paggan do gooders like whats in it for me.... or im doen what im doen because for me,get rid of that fonny selfish way lets be real aman.
Roma have cohanim dna , Samaria was destroyed in 6 century by Byzanitine and after Arabs , Arabs sold 20 000 samarians to persians and persians put samarians to India where they got their colonies. That happen in 6 century. Roma were slaves to Persians in India ! In 11 century the Persian element in India not Hindu was destroyed by Arabs, and Persians took Roma Gypsies to Byzantine ! There was many more races not just Roma even some Hindu came to Byzantine with Persians from region Sindh.
Roma have language ,which contain many words from old Persian Sanskrit and Roma have Elamite/ Persian DNA plus Levite mostly , so Roma must be people from Samaria ,which was destroyed in 6.century AD. Also Spanish a Portugal and polish gypsies ha e haplotype U3 , which we found that is from Juda ( we compare to archeogenetics from ancient Israel) true Juda have high frenquences of this gene ! Cohanim/ Levite, module which is from more than 12 genes combination ,and also match with Roma Gypsies. Levite's in Samaria were nazarites , nazarite custom and religion match with Roma / Gypsies, we know that so many Juda live in Samaria in the time Jesus . Cutheans , which general name for Chaldeans a Elamites tribes which moved to north Israel after north Israelites moved out from north Israel !
Lots Levite's lived in Samaria, also there was city in Samaria Roma-Than , which in Romani language mean Roma land . Records about Romathan city in Samaria you can find in Latin bible Vulgata Macabec 34:11 No every Levite served in Temple many of them lived normal life ! Levites in Samaria were mostly Nazarites . also Rechabite lived in Samaria they were Kenite- Levite origin . some Roma descent from them , Levite, Kenite, Juda, Elamite this is origin of Roma Gypsies ! Chaldeans ,which came to Samaria are today Mandaeans and have similar DNA to Roma / Gypsies. H1a- M82 and M-H69 , also they got plenty of haplotype L which is Shows chaldean origin . L is specific for Chaldeans.
Lots Levite's lived in Samaria, also there was city in Samaria Roma-Than , which in Romani language mean Roma land . Records about Romathan city in Samaria you can find in Latin bible Vulgata Macabec 34:11 No every Levite served in Temple many of them lived normal life ! Levites in Samaria were mostly Nazarites . also Rechabite lived in Samaria they were Kenite- Levite origin . some Roma descent from them , Levite, Kenite, Juda, Elamite this is origin of Roma Gypsies ! Chaldeans ,which came to Samaria are today Mandaeans and have similar DNA to Roma / Gypsies. H1a- M82 and M-H69 , also they got plenty of haplotype L which is Shows chaldean origin . L is specific for Chaldeans.
I have romani blood, and without education , I have always known and been completely devoted to YHWH and his temple, I Believe I was once a levite and a servant in the temple. I spoke to and referred to YHWH as Daden when i was a child.. does anyone know of any significance to the name Daden?
It is my policy to discuss blog posts publicly.
Hebrew call Roma Gypsies Zoanim which derived from Egyptean City Zoan . Zoan was built by Kenites before arrival of Amurru Hyskos
Zoan was Built by Anakim Philistines and Semitic Kenites descendants of Cain or Cainaim son of Arphaxad Kenites where semitic race of Melchizedek
Yes because you are Kenite desndant of Melchizedek
Scriptures are clear, Izrselites and Kenites were taken as captive to region of Gozan, which was Bactria, Roma Gypsies spoken Bactrian language. Which was Hindu Greek, Romani language contain 30% of Greek words.
The scriptures aren't remotely clear about almost anything.
Kenites were descent from Hamath Ben Cannan ( Hamathite) but they were mixed with Phonecians /Egyptians and Amorites
I compared Romani language to Pali language of Philistine there is match more match than in Sanskrit. Pali is short for Palistines
Original Hebrew was Phonecian language no Aramaic. Phonecian was Sanskrit or Aryan language.
Romani language contain just few words of Pali or Sanskrit, lots of Greek and many uknow words. (maybe Turanian) Which is typical language of Jews from Samaria. They always keep ancient phonecian Hebrew. Turanian are descent from Abraham and Keturah. Which was also Midian
@Petr Gina
Sanskrit is not even remotely related to the Phoenician language, to a time depth that well precedes the Holocene era (i.e. the last 10,000 years). Phoenician is no more closely related to Sanskrit than it is to Mandarin Chinese or the Navajo language.
While the Romani language and the Philistine's language were both Indo-European languages (unlike Phoenician), they also don't have much in common at all. The Romani language is derived (remotely) from Sanskrit. The language of the Philistines would have been a close relative of Mycenaean Greek.
Phoenician and Aramaic and Hebrew and Arabic are all relatively closely related Semitic language family members within the larger macro-linguistic Afro-Asiatic language family that also includes ancient Egyptian, Berber, the Chadic languages, and several Ethiopian language families.
The Romani language contains various loan words and a great many of them (about 62% of its vocabulary(), but not a particularly large share of Semitic language loan words. 84% of the loan word are from Hungarian (a Uralic language unrelated to the Semitic languages but related to the Finnish and Estonian languages), about 9% of the loan words are Slavic in origin (a different branch of the Indo-European language family), about 3% of the loanwords are Greek ( different branch of the Indo-European language family), about 2% of the loan words are Persian (a part of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family that Sanskrit is also a part of), and about 3% of the loan word have other sources (the total does not aadd to 100% due to rounding errors).
None of the loan words in the Romani language come from Pali or from any Semitic language or from any other Afro-Asiatic language. http://ulug.ff.cuni.cz/lingvistika/elsik/Elsik_Loanwords-in-Selice-Romani_071104.pdf
Basically everything you have discussed and commented upon and linked to is completely wrong and has no relationship to accepted linguistic analysis. You are advancing crackpot linguistic theories.
http://www.decodinghinduism.com/2016/06/sanskrit-is-mother-of-phoenician-hebrew.html?m=1
Phonecian and Cannanite became one nation. For example Hitties, they don't have Sanskrit words in their language?
What about Aryan rulers in ancient Israel who were they?
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AmRIAAAAYAAJ&dq=comparison%20pali%20language%20to%20romani&pg=PA188#v=onepage&q=comparison%20pali%20language%20to%20romani&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PCNDAQAAMAAJ&dq=Pali%20Puhas%20migrated%20from%20India&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q=Pali%20Puhas%20migrated%20from%20India&f=false
Pali Puhas migrated from India.
There is not much left of the Phoenician history, culture, lifestyle, where they lived or what they looked like. What we have left with, is their writing, due to Cleopatra recording on the Rosetta stone. Beforehand the Phoenician writing system was unknown to the world. It was kept among the Greeks and the Macedonian. Yet all writing system today evolved from Phoenician writing.
- Reading (visible part) of the Rosetta stone, I found a line, "doska tat', which is a Sanskrit word and it means 'THE ONE WITH STRONG ARMS'. It can mean a "protector", a father figure, or a leader who is able to defend and look after his people.
There is more proof than the Rosetta stone alone, the writing system for example. The Greeks were the first to use Phoenician writing. It is explained that the Phoenicians traded knowledge, and that is how they got access to it. What about the Greek language or mythological characters? Did they trade that as well? All the names and characters in Greek mythology is Phoenician, that is SANSKRIT.
Pali (/ˈpɑːli/) or Magadhan,[a] is a Middle Indo-Aryan liturgical language native to the Indian subcontinent. It is widely studied because it is the language of the Pāli Canon or Tipiṭaka and is the sacred language of Theravāda Buddhism. The earliest archaeological evidence of the existence of canonical Pali comes from Pyu city-states inscriptions found in Burma dated to the mid-5th to mid-6th centuries CE.[4]
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rOE9AAAAcAAJ&dq=pali%20Philistine&pg=PA28#v=onepage&q=pali%20Philistine&f=false
Pali or Palistini or Philistini migrated from India Magadhan to Cannnan. Philistines were Hindu Aryans and also Egyptians. Hindu are Egyptian origin in fact.
Phonecians were same race as Philistines they descent from Heracles, known as Heraclids. Heracles was first born son of Mizraim.Heracles was blacksmith or Cain. Kenites were one of the of Heraclids.
@PetrGina
Almost all of the statements you are making are completely wrong and contrary to the facts. They are on topic and engaging in substantive discussion in a civil fashion, so I won't delete them as I would spam or other inappropriate comments. But I don't want to leave the impression that I am agreeing with anything you are saying with my silence.
Romani is not related to Pali language? Lol
Do you know something about Pali language at all?
The Philistines were in the Mediterranean, southwest of Judea, in the days of Abraham. Of course, they were emigrants from a foreign land, both from Jeremiah and from Amos. The Septuagint calls them "foreigners" or "cretches".
"According to the Hindoo tradition, a powerful tribe called the Pali-Puhas migrated from India, seized Arabia and the coast west of the Red Sea (or Edom Sea) and spread to the shores." Mediterranean. Some think that they were the ancestors of the Philistines, and find support for their views in fact about the early civilization of Crete and that Pali-stan is a shepherd in Sanscrito, the ancient language of (northern) India. - H. A. N. The Hebrew name Philisti is PL-ST, where Palestine or Pali-stan comes from.
The Indian origin of the Philistines confirms the political identity of tribal customs. Like the ancient Hindostan, their land was divided into nomas, which was a characteristic feature of the Hindoos and Mizraimites at the time. They seem to have considerable similarities in other functions as well. So they were foreigners in the country and from a foreign and well-known country, and that neither in Europe, Africa nor in West Asia did their being "brought up from the land of Kaftor" indicate an Oriental origin. KPTRIM also had to be in the east. As well as customs, castes and physical type
The Egyptians or Mizraimites were tribal or special to this family of nations, and because they all exist and existed in India in the most distant antiquity, there can be no doubt about the Egyptian and Hindu identity of the race.
file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/10/00/B5FD4828-2D8A-4C42-A8B8-139D0F08C772/IMG_6208.png
Belias of Gubla,were first peolpe of Cannan,they were ruling class of Cannan,descent from Bel son of Nimrod and Egyptian /Philistine Semiramis. They are Kenites ruling class of Phonecia. Yes Chaldeans! Hindu-Egyptian race or Aryans. Pali from India founders of Buddhism were same race also Brahmins all Aryans!
Jezebel Queen of north Israel descent from Phoenecian Royal family, in different historical records she is called like Kenite.
Kenites descent from Shasu or Shasas from India. Rak-Shasas were Brahmins mixed with Dravidians that's the reason why Roma Gypsies have South Asian dna H1a-M82 it's from Abhiras,which were Dravidian or Kushite Sumerian origin . god Shiva (Nimrod ) was ancestors of Abhiras.Kenites were Hindu SHASAS came to CANNAN from India . Shasas, ASSURAS, Dayitas Titans, Abhiras were one nation they came to Cannan and ruled there before Abraham came there.
This HINDU Brahmini or Aryans were descent from Brahma which his real name is Kainain son of Arpahxad. Moabites royal family were SHASU-SHUTU worshiped Chemosh - Shemosh or SHAMASH Sumerian god Kain. They are also known as sons of Seth , Shasu SUTU or Seti. Roma Gypsies descent from Heber brother of Ziporah HINDU or Kushite Abhiras KENITES.
Hindu Brahmis are Semitic origin
Shasu which were Brahmins also were SEMITIC ORIGIN MIXED WITH KUSHITE DRAVIDIANS,SOUTH ASIAN DNA
Shasu build city Salem , were worshiped Shahar and Shalim sons of Asher. Asherah was wife of sumerian moon god Anu or Sin . Moon god Sin is identified with Arpahaxad.
Kainan son Melekh -Melech or Moloch was worshiped in Phoenicia.also know as Hindu god Agni god of fire.
Rak-Shasas or Shasu belong to Deva Brahmins which were ancestors of Kenites,how I said they were mixed with Dravidians they are recorded as Giants or Anaks in Hindu Rig-Veda books . This Shasas were founder of Hitties -Hurrian empire they worshiped Hindu gods like Varuna ,Indra, Mirtha etc..also they were founders of Hyksos with help of Cannanites like Hitties and Horites or Hurrians PEOLPE from Moab.
Israelite king David had GYPSY heritage from Ruth . Ruth was Moabite princess,so she descent from Anak Shasu family . Ruth was wife of Obed ,Oběd was ancestor of king David .
Roma Gypsies are Rechabites. Athinganoi which in Byzantine Greek mean Untouchables, Untouchables were Rak-Shasas from India. Rechabites mixed so much with Levites and Judas they can be classified as real ISRAELITES.
The January 21, 2024 comments by an anonymous commenter are rubbish with no basis in reality, as are all of the comments by Petr Gina to this post.
If you think so ? Trust me Kenites descent from Shasu, Shasu were Rak-Shasas from India they were Aryans Veda Brahmins. One of proof is Hitties empire ,that's proof Indo Aryans ruled there Hindu gods worshiped there as VARUNA,INDRA MIRTHA, HITTIES AND HURRIANS WERE PEOLPE FROM MOAB Edom and Amon. If look in Egyptian records they meantion SHASU-SHUTU peolpe from Seir also they meantion Shasu Yhw. Chemosh moabite god is identified as hindu god Shiva and Shiva is identified as Nimrod. Shiva was worshiped by Rak- Shashas (Rak mean Giant or Anak). All this information you can found online academic work ,if you know how to do reaserch?
Rak-Shasas belong to YADAVA clans of Brahmins . APIRU identified as Abhiru or ABHIRAS from India. Abhiras migrated to India in ancient time with god king Shiva /Nimrod. Shasass became Shiva worshipers and joined Abhiras and became one nation. ABHIRAS were KUSHITE Dravidian carried Dravidian haplogroup H1a-M82 which have Roma Gypsies. Language of Rakshasas was Paisachi Prakrit language of Apabrahamsha this language is ancestor language of Romani and Punjabi language . How I said Rakshasas belong to Yadhava clans .
THE POLITICAL HISTORY OF EGYPT.
305
In one of the sacred books of the Hindoos, quoted by Captain Wilford, are some circumstances related which are very remarkable, and which not only appear to sustain the above opinion, but also to prove the influence India in ancient times exercised upon Egypt. One of the circumstances here allu- ded to is the mentioning of two migrations from the East in remote times; first of the Yadavas, "sacerdotal order," or "sacred caste," and afterwards of Pali or Shepherds. These last are said to have been a very powerful tribe, who in ancient times ruled over the whole country from the Ganges to the Indus, and are called Pali-puhas in the annals of Hindostan, and Pali-bothis, by Pliny. They are said to have been a very enterprising and roving people, who by conquest and colonization gradually spread themselves over a great part of Asia, Africa and Europe, and who, crossing from the shores of the Erythræan sea, took possession of Arabia, as well as of the lands on the western shore of the Red Sea. There are also those who consider them to have been the eastern Ethiopians, as distinguished from the western, by Homer and Herodotus.*
The latter of these writers even says, that the inhabitants of Syrian Palestine related that their ancestors had migrated from the country east of the Erythræan Sea, to the shores of the Mediterranean. It is also to be observed that a Palestine, or Palestan, was found on the banks of the Tigris; that a town by the name of Paliputra was situated on the Helles- pont, and the town Philista on the river Po, in Italy.
The following extract from an article in the Asiatic Researches, by Captain Wilford, tends also to confirm the opinion that the shepherds who invaded Egypt, had migrated from some distant land of the east.
"An ancient king, called Chatura Yana, passed a hundred years in a cavern of Chrishna-geri, the Black Mountain, on the banks of the Cali, per- forming the most rigorous acts of devotion. At length Vishnu appeared to him, and promised him that he should have a son, whom he was to name Tamovatsa. This prince, who succeeded his father, was warlike and am- bitious, yet wise and devout. He prayed to Vishnu to enlarge his empire, and the god granted his request. Hearing that Misra-sthan-the land of Egypt was governed by a powerful and unjust prince called Nirmaryada, he, with a chosen army, invaded that country, without having previously made any declaration of war, and began to administer justice among the people, and to give them a specimen of the blessings of a good king; and when Nirmaryada sent to expostulate with him, he treated his remonstrance with disdain. This brought on a bloody battle of three days, in which the Egyptian king was killed. The conqueror, who fought like another Parasa Rama, then took possession of the kingdom of Misra, and governed it with perfect equity. Babya Vatsa, his son, devoted himself to religion.
In Arabia were known as Nabataeans, in region red sea ( Moab mad Edom) as SHASU-Sutu or Sethi, in Europe are known as Druids, six clans of Aryan Brahmins migrated from India to this regions.
Hurrian wives, because they were of their same religion!!! Their Hurrian wives of Haran (etc.) worshiped the same Supreme Godhead as that of the Jewish patriarch Abraham and his wife Sarah. Thus the Supreme Godhead of the Hurrians was the same Supreme Godhead of the Hebrews and the Jews (and Arabs).
Who were the Hebrews? “The [Yadava] community was formed of four clans, being the Abhira, Andhaka, Vrishni, and Satvatas, who all worshiped Krishna.” ~ WIKI
Yes ABHIRAS were ancestors of Kenites and How we know Kenites were ancestors of some Jewish clans . SHASU YAHWEH of Samath were identified with Kenites.
The eldest Egyptian records about Shasu from Seir (Edom) is from 2370 BC ,so they were in Cannan roughly 400 years earlier than Abraham.
Canaan in the Second Millennium BCE
the same is true of the Sutu in the Amarna letters. What, then, might be the relationship between the Egyptian Shasu and the Amarna 'Apiru?
It should be emphasized that the tribally organized groups (Shasu, Sutu) and the splinter groups that were organized as independent bands ('Apiru) were not identical. When discussing their accurate identity within the Egyptian and the Akkadian texts, one should, in my opinion, also take into account the literary tradition of both the Egyptian and the Akkadian scribal schools. Once we understand the connotations of both names - the Shasu in the Egyptian royal inscriptions and the 'Apiru in the Akkadian correspon- dence the way is open for a reconsideration of the identity of both names and even for a new inquiry into their possible resemblance in certain pas- sages. To demonstrate the problem of literary tradition, we offer here one ex- ample. Two tablets from the Egyptian garrison-city of Kumidi (Kämid el-Löz) deal with the deportation of groups of 'Apiru from northern Canaan to Nubia (Edzard 1970:55-60). The two tablets were sent from Egypt, and, being writ- ten in Akkadian, the scribes used the well known term ""Apiru" to designate the banished trouble-makers. Would an Egyptian scribe composing a royal inscription call that same group by the name "Apiru," or would he rather use the name "Shasu"?
It is with this observation in mind that the references to the town of Ibirta in the "Satirical Letter" and the Amarna letters should be understood. The designation of the area as the "district of the Shasu" may be compared with the famous 'Apiru territory (eqli SA.GAZ) situated in the Land of Hatti, not far from the border of Ugarit (Nougayrol 1956:107f). The town of Ibirta as an 'Apiru center may be equated with the town Hlb
'prm mentioned in the tablets from Ugarit. Surprisingly, the phrase "he made himself into the likeness (iry.f sw m ki n) of an Asiatic" in the passage relat- ing to the town of Ibirta in Papyrus Anastasi I is parallel to the well-known phrase "he became (nēpušu ana) 'Apiru" common to the Amarna letters (Nougayrol 1956:107f). The territory was perhaps bound together by some sort of tribal organization, simultaneously sheltering scattered bands of 'Apiru. The Egyptian and the Amarna scribes selected their designations for these groups according to the literary traditions of their respective cultures, Shasu in Egyptian and 'Apiru in Akkadian.
Early History of Rajasthan - Stránka 34
books.google.co.uk › books
Dineśa Candra Śukla · 1978 · Zobrazení úryvků · Jiná vydání
... Abhiras were connect- ed with the Apiru ( Khapiru ) who played a very prominant role in the history of western Asia in the second millennium B.C. In Hebrew literature these people are mentioned as Ibhri ( an adjectival form of Apiru ) ...
The Abhiras were a legendary people mentioned in ancient Indian epics and scriptures as early as the Vedas. they were a warlike tribe is admitted by all. Probably they were a nomadic people as they are associated with various peoples and provinces.[1] A historical people of the same name are mentioned in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea. The Mahabharata describes them as living near the seashore and on the bank of the Sarasvati River, near Somnath in Gujarat.[2]
Wikipedia
Key to our understanding of Israel's emergence are features that are considered to be binding components of group formation and identity. These can include an empowering narrative of shared experiences, woven into an epic account of primordial deeds, miracles, and genealogies (see, e.g., Erickson 2003). In the case of Israel's prehistory, its enduring epic narrative, the Bible, recounts the journey from slavery to salvation in a land promised to them by the Israelite God, Yhwh. The central theme of Israel's ethnogenesis is the saga of their unique relationship as the chosen people of Yhwh. The worship of Israel's God formed the core ideology of ancient Israel and Judah and is still an essential component of Jewish identity. Ancient Israel's mixed multitude is defined here as a collection of loosely organized and largely indigenous, tribal, and kin-based groups whose porous borders permitted penetration by smaller numbers from external groups (Parkinson 2002). Although it is impossible to reconstruct with certainty the protohistory of Israel's origins, it most likely comprised diverse elements of Late Bronze Age society, namely, the rural Canaanite population, displaced peasants and pastoralists, and lawless 'apiru and shasu. Fugitive or runaway Semitic slaves from New Kingdom Egypt may have joined this mixed multitude. Nonindigenous groups mentioned in the biblical narrative, including Midia- nites, Kenites, and Amalekites, may also have been part of this mixed multitude. New Kingdom Egypt's decline and eventual retreat from Canaan undoubtedly was one of the major contributing factors in Canaan's return to a more fragmented kinship-based tribal society and Israel's subsequent ethnogenesis.
Attempts to locate Israel's ethnogenesis in the small Iron 1 villages in the hill country and marginal regions ultimately go back to the biblical narrative, in particular the tradition that situates their initial settlement in these regions as recounted in the books of Joshua and Judges. Despite their complex history of composition and the purpose of these texts, they do appear to preserve some authentic memories from the late second millennium, as noted above. Corroborating evidence is found in the archaeological record that documents noteworthy changes in twelfth- and eleventh-century BCE settlement patterns and in the distinct material culture that characterizes the central highland regions on both sides of the Jordan. At the same time, aspects of the ceramic repertoire, notably its utilitarian function and mode of production at these small hill-country hamlets, distinguish it from Iron I pottery assemblages from sites in the lowlands and seem to demarcate a social "boundary" that may reflect group identity (Killebrew 2003).
Utilizing the full arsenal of sources available, including the archaeological evidence, a cautious and critical reading of the biblical texts, the appearance of the word "Israel" as a people in the Israel (Merneptah) Stela, and theoretical models, it is possible to begin to delineate social and material-culture boundaries that define the peoples who emerged during this period between the collapse of the Late Bronze Age empires (ca. 1200 BCE) and the reemergence of regional kingdoms (ca. tenth/ninth century BCE), including those of Israel and Judah. When considered in its larger eastern Mediterranean context, the process of Israelite ethnogenesis is not unique. Similar processes of breakdown and fragmentation were occurring simultaneously throughout the region during the final centuries of the second millennium, a societal transformation that formed the foundations
of both the biblical and classical worlds.
The Oxford Handbook of the Historical Books of the Hebrew Bible
2020
So Kenites are know today as GYPSIES my friends? Yes they were Hindu from Hindu Kush but they are also Jews !
Notes and Queries - Stránka 412
books.google.co.uk › books
1867 · Přečtené · Jiná vydání
... Kenite . Job was a Kenite . Balaam was a Kenite . Eli , Samuel , Elijah were all Kenites . David was a Kenite King . To the Kenites belong all the Jehovistic Psalms , and to the Hebrews the Elohistic ones . The Apocryphal Books carry on ...
A continued reminder that I do not agree with the recent comments by Anonymous, which range from flat wrong to off kilter to non-sequitors.
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